Six-figure Launches With A TINY List–Tarzan Kay Shares Her Copywriting Secrets (Transcript)

According to today’s guest, Tarzan Kay, a six-figure launch isn’t about your list size and it’s not just about how awesome you are—really! Instead, it’s about how you structure your offer, how you price it, and how you build a relationship with your audience. There’s a method behind it.

This is a transcript of Work Less, Earn More, Episode 22. Listen to the episode here.

Tarzan Kay:

While I will still send emails to my entire list, I definitely focus more heavily on the launch list. Those are the people who are the most engaged, they’re the most interested, they’re far more likely to buy than anyone else on your email list.

Gillian Perkins:

We became entrepreneurs because more than anything, we want freedom. We want to be in control of our own schedule, income, and life. But unfortunately, that isn’t always the reality of being a business owner. I’m Gillian Perkins, and I’m on a mission to take back entrepreneurship for what it’s supposed to be. In every episode, I’ll share with you how to get the most out of every hour you work so that you can work less and earn more. Let’s get to it.

Tarzan Kay, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me here today. I am so excited to talk to you, first of all, to tap into your copyrighting super powers and also specifically because I feel like you’ve become almost legendary for your ability to generate massive revenue with a tiny list.

Tarzan Kay:

Yeah, that’s been my jam for the last couple years. And I’m here to share all the secrets, I’ll share the numbers. I’ll share it all, I’m an open book. And I think it’s really refreshing to hear people share numbers in the earlier stages of their business because it is not that helpful to know conversion rates on a list of 300,000 people. Most of us don’t have that. So I’m here, I’m here to share.

Gillian Perkins:

That’s true. I really appreciate that you are such an open book. That’s something that my audience has come to expect from me as well, so I know that they will appreciate that about you. And also I know that a lot of them are in kind of a similar place to where you are in one regard, you don’t have that big of an email list, you don’t have that big of an audience. But I think that you’ve done such an amazing job with making the most out of what you do have. And so that’s what I really want to dive into today.

Tarzan Kay:

Let’s do it. I feel like I need to add the disclaimer though that-

Gillian Perkins:

We’ll go ahead.

Tarzan Kay:

Now my list is growing. So at the beginning of last year, I had 3,000 subscribers, which I would consider still a small list, and also I paid to get most of those people. An organic list is always going to be more valuable than a list of people that you paid for. I started the year with 3,000 people on my email list, and I had some really runaway success promotions while all the while I’m teaching smallest strategies, that’s my jam. And that’s what I really want to give people because they’re very different from big list strategies. But also I ran ads consistently all year for 12 months.

And because I was looking at my business and I was like, “Okay, I rock at small list strategies, I’m really good at converting with email. And what would it be like if I had a bigger list?” And I kind of had to let that go that I was going to be the small list queen forever, and I still have those strategies in my pocket. And I still use them, and I treat my larger list like a small list. I use all the same strategies, but I also feel like, well now I have 13,000 people on my list and I feel like I have to say that.

Gillian Perkins:

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that disclaimer, thanks for putting it all out there. I think that there’s some people, even 3,000 people probably sounds like a big list. But in the industry, and this is something I kind of want to get into upfront here, in the industry that we are in, which in a broad sense is the digital marketing industry, 3,000 people is considered a very small list. And so the amount of success that you were able to create with that is crazy and awesome.

Tarzan Kay:

And also I can compete on sales with someone that does have 300,000 people, and I have before. I do a lot of affiliate promotions. And when you do affiliate marketing, it’s like there’s a bunch of people all selling the same product, and every day there’s a leaderboard. Every day I’m looking at my name next to some other internet superstar who I know has like 300,000 subscribers, and I’m here with my little list of 3,000 like, “Oh, hey, same conversions, same number of sales, much higher conversions actually.”

Gillian Perkins:

I’ve been there too, and it’s such a good feeling. But at the same time, I just want anyone who’s listening who has a much smaller list and is in a different industry to understand the difference between different industries. So maybe if they have 500 people on their email list right now and they hear us talking about 3,000 as a small list and then they think, “Well, then I’m nobody.” In most other industries, having a few thousand people on your list is amazing and incredible and means you’re ahead of the game.

Tarzan Kay:

Yeah. And I also want to say I do know people, it’s not just marketing stories, I have several students that are doing multiple six figures with a list of under 500 people.

Gillian Perkins:

That is incredible.

Tarzan Kay:

It’s definitely possible, but the strategies are different. What often happens is we try to apply the same sales strategies with a list of 200 people, and those sales strategies were meant to be used with a list of like 5,000 plus. And when you have a smaller list, you can actually talk to people and start one-on-one conversations. You could make a sweet little video for every single person who hits reply to your email every time. Imagine the relationship building you could do. And this is true of Instagram followers, it’s true across so many channels. When you start thinking about people as leads and you start thinking like I need more leads, well, there’s automatically a problem.

When you think about people as humans who share the same hopes and dreams that you do, it changes things, it changes the way you show up like, “Oh hey, look, this isn’t like tarzankay241@gmail.com that signed up to my email list,” like, “oh hey, there’s Tarzan. I’m going to send a shout out to her and say thanks for joining my email list.”

Gillian Perkins:

That makes sense. And I just want to mention here that I don’t think it’s a difference between good people who are able to see their list as people versus bad people who see their list as leads. As your list grows, it becomes more and more of just noise, just stuff, and it’s really hard to stay connected to individual people because there’s just so many of them. It is a crowd of people. And so you have this special gift when your list is small that it is easy for you to see them as people and you should take advantage of.

Tarzan Kay:

Agreed 100%.

Gillian Perkins:

Let’s start out by talking about some of those results that you created back maybe a year ago when your list was a lot smaller because I’ve heard a few of those stories, and they’re pretty impressive. And then let’s move on and talk about some specific small list tactics that you think really helped you to get those results.

Tarzan Kay:

Awesome. I’m just pulling up my debrief on a launch that I did last year so I can share the actual numbers. Oh my gosh, we did so many magical things last year with a really small email list. So let me tell you about this promotion. I was promoting my program, which is called Email Stars. And I’ve offered it in several different ways, which I think is really important when you are starting out is to figure out what’s the right format for your program. And when you have a smaller email list, I would definitely highly recommend doing something that is more expensive because when you’re talking to people individually, you can make a bigger sale.

Tarzan Kay:

So that’s what I would always do, in the early stages is to sell through sales calls instead of trying to sell through a sales page and also offer something that’s more high ticket. I have this program, Email Stars, which now it is a digital program. I’ve sort of worked my way up to that. And it started as a mastermind, like a mastermind that came with a training program. That product was $5,000, $5,000 pay in full or $6,000 on a three pay. I went into that launch with 3,929 people on my email list keeping in mind probably at least a third of that list just came from paid leads, so they were new on my email list. It’s always a bit tougher to get people to buy something from you that’s more expensive when they just met you-

Gillian Perkins:

Yes, definitely, because you don’t have that relationship with them.

Tarzan Kay:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I had lots of fun sales strategies for this product. I sold it through a webinar, I had 732 people opt in to the webinar. I just want to make a quick calculation here so you know that as a percentage because it’s actually 732 divided by 3,929. I got 18.6% of my full list to opt in to the webinar if I did the math right. That’s quite high and that’s pretty good. I think it’s a great goal to get 15% to 20% to actually opt in. I would consider my launch list to be 732 people. I personally just learned how to calculate conversion rates in the last 18 months. And I used to just stick my head in the sand and pretend it was too complicated for me.

A side note here, when we think about conversion rates, we actually think about conversion rates based on the launch list. So if people say … And this is really important because a baseline metric for conversions on a launch is like 2 to 3%. In some cases, people will even say 1 to 2%. But what happens is people will be like, “Okay, so 1 to 2%, I have 200 subscribers. So if I convert 1 to 2%, well, that’s like two to four people.” Well, no actually. When we think about conversion rates, they are calculated based on the launch list, and the launch list is the people who opted in to be in your promotion.

So of those roughly 4,000 people, about 700 said, “Yes, I will watch your webinar.” And those people, I always go after them a little bit harder. So while I will still send emails to my entire list, I definitely focus more heavily on the launch list. Those are the people who are the most engaged, they’re the most interested, they’re far more likely to buy than anyone else on your email list. So we calculate conversion rates based on that number.

Gillian Perkins:

I appreciate you bringing that up because that was something that I didn’t understand for so long, and I was comparing my results based on my entire list compared to the results that I heard other people reporting. And my conversion rates were so not stacking up. I had 1,000 people on my email list, and I heard other people talking about 2 to 3% conversion rates, and I’m like, “Okay, so that should be 20 to 30 sales,” and I made two. What’s happening here? And it was because I didn’t realize the difference.

Tarzan Kay:

Yes. And this is so critical because oftentimes people will come to me and they’ll be like, “Oh, I have this major issue. My course is converting so low, I only made three sales.” And I’m like, “Whoa, back up a second. You only made three sales, but you only had 50 people come to your webinar or sign up for your webinar, you’re doing really well.” So we do really have to put these things in perspective. And it’s important to know how to calculate these numbers. I love to sit down after a launch and do a debrief and look at some really key numbers like how much revenue did we make, what was the overall conversions, what was our earnings per lead? Which by the way is also calculated based on the launch list. There’s so many things we could look at.

Coming back to this promotion, $5,000 or $6,000 on a payment plan. And then what I also did was after the mastermind enrollment period closed, I did a down sell and I sold just the training. It’s basically a digital version for $1,500 or three payments of $549. I had two offers, but the messaging was really similar. I would never promote both at the same time by the way. I went really hard promoting the mastermind and all the email training. Inevitably, there’s a lot of people who want that, but they don’t have $5,000 or even $6,000 so the down sell was a really easy sell and a natural continuation.

I’d never tried that before, but I was really glad I did. So 732 people in the launch, here’s what happened. 70 and people joined the mastermind at the full pay price and 6 people joined on the payment plan. So I had 23 people join the mastermind program although my goal was 30, I was very happy with 23. I also had 19 people buy the down sell offer. The total money brought in from that launch was $151,000.

Gillian Perkins:

So impressive, so impressive.

Tarzan Kay:

Yeah, pretty awesome. And also what’s amazing is a lot of that was pay-in-full, like 90,000 of that was pay-in-full, which is so amazing. And even the payment plans were short payment plans, so there’s a lot less drop-off. And at the same time as I was doing that promotion, at the time I was still doing private client work. A launch generates so much momentum in so many different ways, you really don’t know. Sometimes you get to the end of a goal, you get to the end of a launch and you’re like, “Oh man, I didn’t reach my goal,” or, “I didn’t get the specific outcome that I predicted.”

There’s this wonderful halo effect when you put yourself out there and you’ll be really radically visible and talk about your offers. People do want to work with you and other offers and opportunities you didn’t expect happen. One of my clients, she did a launch and she was like, “Oh, okay, fine, I got six people or something.” And then she got a very well paid speaking gig because of some of the stuff she’d put out there during the launch. And that even ended up being even more profitable than the launch itself.

We always want to keep in mind the halo effect, you don’t even know what your launch is going to bring to you when you’ve just closed the cart. You have no idea. And whether it goes good or bad, like I had launches that did amazing last year, I also had launches that were not amazing at all. I always consider every launch to be a really good learning experience. That learning might not have paid off this launch, it will probably pay off the next launch though. The most valuable lessons, they often came on the heels of what felt like a big flop.

Let me just give you one more number. We had 23 sales, we’re just going to do a little math here, 23 sales in full pay plus 19 sales on the down sell. That’s 42 sales total. And remember our launch list was 732 people. So we’re going to go 42 divided by 732, and we get a conversion rate of 5.7%, which is very high but also not crazy unusual when you have a smaller list. I recommend that people work to just meet the baseline metric, which is like 1 to 3% let’s say. In your first couple of launches, just try and meet the baseline metric. Sometimes people will see like, “Oh, 1 to 2%, I’m going to blow that out of the water.” Well maybe or maybe not.

Let’s aim to be average on your first launch, that will be so great if you could hit the average. Imagine if you could ride a bike on the first try, you wouldn’t expect that. Kids don’t ride a bike on the first try and you’re like, “You failed.” You ride it a little bit, and it’s so exciting. Launching is a real skill, and it takes actually launching to learn, take some failures. I had the benefit of having written for a lot of launches and been through some launches with my clients, not a lot but some. So I had a bit of a running head start, that’s for sure, but I still had flops 100%.

Gillian Perkins:

This episode is brought to you by Startup Society. If you run an online business or you’re thinking about starting one, then Startup Society is the place for you. It’s a boot camp training program for entrepreneurs plus an incredibly supportive membership community. If you’re looking for a framework to make building an online business as simple and straightforward as possible, then that’s exactly what you’ll find inside Startup Society. Every month, we create a step-by-step action plan for our members to follow to create a specific result in their business so that they can keep moving forward and growing. Past action plans have helped our members write their websites, launch online courses, and hire their first employees. And when you become a member not only will you get access to our future action plans, but you’ll also get access to our entire library of past action plans, including the ones that I just mentioned.

You’ll also get business coaching directly from me during our live monthly coaching sessions. During these sessions, you can ask any business questions that you have so that you can make sure that you get the answers you need in order to be able to keep moving forward and not get stuck. As a member, you’ll also be invited into our membership community where you can connect with other online entrepreneurs who are crushing it so that you can be inspired and make some lasting connections. If you’re interested in becoming a member of Startup Society, then there’s no time like the present to make that happen. To sign up, just head to giillianperkins.com/startupsociety. Again, that’s gillianperkins.com/startupsociety.

And as a listener of this podcast, I have a special offer for you. You can become a member of Startup Society for $10 off every single month, just use code, EARNMORE when you are signing up. Again, that code is EARNMORE, one word, and it will give you $10 off your monthly membership costs. If you want to turn your online business into a success as quickly and as strategically as possible, then I would love to work with you to make that happen. And now, let’s get back to the episode.

Okay, that is such a good story. I want to make it more than a story for the listeners though. I don’t just want this to be a story about how amazing and awesome Tarzan is.  I had a few takeaways that I got out of that. The first one was that how you structure your offer really matters. I thought that was so smart that you started out by selling a mastermind and then you had a down sell that was also really valuable where you were selling essentially just the online course all by itself. Most people don’t do it that way, but I can definitely see how that increased your total sales, it made both offers seem a lot more valuable. And it made you be able to sell them, it allowed you to be able to sell them for higher prices. So that was my first takeaway.

My second takeaway was about pricing high. Something that I realized as I was working on trying to have my first successful launch initially was that the hardest part about it was just getting the sale. That was way harder than selling for a certain price. It didn’t really matter whether the product was $1,000 or whether the product was $50, just getting the sale was the hardest part. And so I think that that’s something else that the listeners could really take advantage of here is don’t try to price low to make more sales, but instead price high. Because if your list is small or your audience is small, then you’re going to make fewer sales so you can make more money if you price your offer high.

Another takeaway I had was you said it’s easier to grow your business when you’re launching or you’re selling. That was absolutely my experience as well. I was really struggling to get exposure with my business, blogging every week, doing all these things to try to slowly build an exposure. But it wasn’t until I actually launched something and put some skin in the game. Just like you were saying, I spent money on Facebook ads. My first launch, it made diddly squat. I literally made zero sales, so I wasted the money on Facebook ads. Air quotes there, wasted. But it grew my business more than anything else I had ever done, grew my list, grew my audience, grew my, not just my visibility but also my credibility. It strengthened my relationships with my list because I was talking to them a lot more frequently. So I love that tip.

And then the last thing was you said it takes actually launching it to learn. Just love that, I think that that is so true. You’re probably going to fail your first launch, maybe your first several lunches. I know I definitely did. But that was the only way that I managed to get better. All good things. So that was a launch that you said about a year ago or almost two years ago now?

Tarzan Kay:

That was roughly a year ago.

Gillian Perkins:

And so your list has grown a lot since then and you said you have another pretty impressive launch that happened when you had about 10,000 subscribers, is that right?

Tarzan Kay:

Oh, yes. The next time I launched this product, oh my gosh. The next time I launched it, it was like all the benefit of every past launch had just all added up together. I launched this program again as a Black Friday offer. I sort of repositioned it, not repositioned it, I would say, not even rebranded, I just called it the Black Friday edition. And I launched Email Stars again this time as a digital offer only for the same amount of money, $1,500 or three payments of $549. And this time I launched it as the Black Friday edition. So it was the exact same course but it came with, and we’ll probably do this on Black Friday again because it went so well, it came with a swipe file of Black Friday emails, which I also, FYI, sold after it closed.

It was like a two-day cart open and I also just sold, it was like a template pack. So you could have a swipe file for your Black Friday promotion. And I did this Email Stars Black Friday edition a good two to three weeks before Black Friday because if you wait too long, it just gets so crowded, everything’s Black Friday and you’re just like, “Shut up about Black Friday.” I don’t have the exact numbers, but I can tell you that I made $137,000 on that launch.

And what’s really amazing about it, it’s a lot less money than the launch that I did earlier that year. Well, it’s a little bit less money. But what’s really amazing about it is that I didn’t do a webinar, I didn’t do any fancy things, I didn’t run retargeting ads. I didn’t do any of the bells and whistles that I would normally do in a launch. I just wanted to open it one more time before the year, so I sprinkled some special sauce on it, which was the Black Friday theme. I repurposed a lot of the same emails that I had sent earlier that year. I always recommend when you’re reusing email copy to give it a good facelift, change 20%. Swap out the hooks for new things. But once you make the segway to the sale, the sale can still be the same.

I repurposed so much of that, it was like I didn’t do any sales calls, I just sat back. The funny thing about that launch, it performed so well, I was so proud. And I felt like all the money I had invested in Facebook ads throughout the whole year, which was not a lot, it was probably like, I wish I knew exactly what I spent on Facebook ads. But if I had to guess, I would say it was maybe $15,000. And it felt like it all paid off in that launch, like, “Oh, look more subscribers means I can make more money with less work.” So I was really proud of that launch.

Oh, there’s one more thing I wanted to say about it. Hang on, let me see if I can grab it from my brain. I remember, this was such a good lesson. I’ve been in this position so many times before, but I really learned my lesson this time. So I’ve got this Black Friday offer and it was a five day cart open time, opened on Monday, closed on Friday. I didn’t want to be working on the weekend, I made this simple five day email sequence and I’m done. We’ll just see what happens, I got nothing to lose. And the first two days were very quiet. So I have the actual numbers here. I made one sale on the first day. So I was like, “Oh, I guess this isn’t really working.” I made six sales on the next day, and I was like, “Okay, might hit 30 sales.”

And then I made four sales the next day. Okay, mid cart rule, that’s a real thing. And then eight sales, and I was like okay. And then on the last two days, I made 80% of my sales come on the last two days, 32 sales on the second to last day, 29 sales on the last day. And it was such a good reminder, I teach this to my students, and I forgot the lesson myself, which is never judge your launch in the middle of the launch. You don’t know. A lot of people do buy during the end, you don’t know what’s going to happen when you’re in the middle of it, you do not have a clear vision. So that was lesson one. Second takeaway because we do want this podcast to be something other than why Tarzan is so awesome. Second takeaway is that the fast action bonus is so important.

Gillian Perkins:

Talk to me about how you structured it for this one.

Tarzan Kay:

Oh, well this one didn’t have a fast action bonus. That’s why there were no sales in the beginning.

Gillian Perkins:

I see.

Tarzan Kay:

Yeah, totally. That’s totally why. I had done a couple of launches, I should have known better because I had done several launches last year where the sales were initially really slow. And I have always also taught one thing where I see people getting tripped up with their launches is they try and do all the different types of bonuses like fast action bonus, early bird bonus, webinar only bonus, mid-part bonus, announce a payment plan in the middle and then a closing bonus, then surprise bonuses at the end, like bonus, bonus, bonus. And it’s great, bonuses work, expiring bonuses are very effective at getting people to buy. But on the other hand, every time you add an expiring bonus, it adds another layer of complexity to your launch.

And that means more tech that has to be set up. Now, I have great support, I have excellent support. I have two full-time team members plus someone who basically runs the whole business part-time. I have excellent support, therefore I’m doing all the bonuses. At the time of recording, it’ll be over by the time this episode airs, but I’m doing an affiliate promotion. I have several fast action bonuses. There’s a fast action bonus that expires on day one, another one that expires on day two, then there’s a whole bunch of core bonuses. Then there’s weekend bonuses that get announced, and then there’s closing bonuses. There’s all the bonuses. Because I have so much team support, I can do stuff like that. I can have someone helping me create the bonuses, helping me deliver them.

In the beginning, you got to just chill out on the bonuses. Closing bonus is a really good one because everyone gets it anyway. You can’t penalize people for enrolling early, everyone gets it. The closing bonus is really good. In the middle, you could do an extended payment plan that you announce in the middle cause that’s pretty easy to do. But then the fast action bonus I would say, that’s why I kind of didn’t do it. I was like, “I don’t have the bandwidth.” And after last year, I was like, “I will make the bandwidth, whatever it takes have the fast action bonus.”

Gillian Perkins:

Yes. I would say if you want to hate launching, do all the bonuses when you don’t have support. That is the way to make yourself hate launching. And also keep in mind that even if you have the support, bonuses can like dilute your message and distract from your message because there’s so much you want to communicate when you’re launching. I know the first time someone launches they might feel like they don’t have enough to say. But the more you launch, the more you have to say. You want to tell people all the reasons why they should buy and about the deadlines and about the bonuses. There’s just so much messaging you can fit in there in so little time. So few emails you can actually send unless you’re going to be launching over the course of a month, which we’re not going to do.

So that’s just another thing I would say to watch out for especially when you’re first launching, don’t try to fit too much in, simplify it.

Tarzan Kay:

Oh, that is excellent advice. Well done. I’m so glad you mentioned that because a lot of people do just get burnt out with launching. Boy, you just did too much. So all that super involved bonus strategy that I just mentioned to you, I’m an affiliate for the program that I’m promoting. So when you’re an affiliate, I already know I’m promoting Selena Soo’s program Impacting Millions. And I know Selena is sending all of these emails out that’s like all about the core of the program and her bonuses. She’s got that covered, therefore I’m free to just like talk about bonuses. But you make a really good point. It totally will dilute the messaging. And also people get fatigued. They’re like, “Oh, another bonus.” It’s almost like you’re just throwing things out the wall at some point.

Gillian Perkins:

Yeah. It can turn into, I would say just noise, just way too much stuff if you’re just giving them so much. I’m glad that you pointed out that you were doing this as an affiliate launch because you had nothing else to talk about aside from bonuses or the amazing results you’d gotten from the program you were promoting. You didn’t have to worry about doing that like core messaging for the product. So yeah, I’m glad that you pointed that out. So you’ve shared with us two different stories about some really successful launches you’ve had. Do you have some more tips that you could share with us? You mentioned earlier on small list tactics, what are some of your best small list tactics?

Tarzan Kay:

So one of my most favorite things to do and something that I added on last year is I got this tool called BombBomb, and there’s many video tools. I just happen to really love this tool, and I love the company. They have great customer support, they’re just awesome. I use this tool to send personalized video messages, and it works straight inside of Gmail, so I can reply by video to any questions people send me. And I can do it without even leaving my browser. And I also love that it makes a little GIF of like the first two to three seconds, probably first two seconds of your video. And it’s just so clickable and so awesome.

And I love using this tool to talk to people and to personalize my messaging. I use it during launches to answer people that have questions. If I’m trying to close a VIP day client and I want to do something special for them, I make them a video. I also add videos to my promo emails. They’re so fun, and they’re such a cool pattern interrupt when you’re sending all these text-based emails and maybe they have a cute picture, but a video totally breaks the pattern. So I love using that. And the fewer subscribers you have, the more people you can reach through video. It’s so personal.

Sometimes I’ll write the person’s name on a whiteboard and just put that in the first couple seconds so they know that it’s personal and it’s not mass marketing. So that’s one of my favorite things to do. There’s a blog post on my website that’s all about all the things that I do with BombBomb, so check that out.

Gillian Perkins:

Yeah, cool. We can link in the show notes. That’s a really good tip. I really liked the idea of including those videos in your sales emails, especially because I’ve seen plenty of people include gifs in their emails, which already is a nice little pattern interrupt just to make it a little bit more fun. But having it be a personalized video from you really takes that to the next level. And this is definitely a small list tactic because it is such a good strategy to use to make that more personal connection, but it can get a little bit weird when your list is a lot bigger. Even if you do it for some people, it can actually damage your credibility to do that potentially.

If you’re known for having a really big audience, for having a really big list, for having a whole team and then you send people a personalized video, it can make it look like you’re a liar potentially. You know what I mean? People could disbelieve if someone is just getting your emails. So that’s why I say it’s such a good small list tactic.

Tarzan Kay:

I think the real issue there when you have a bigger list is people don’t believe you. So I’ll do a video and I’ll write the person’s name on the white board, and they’ll email me back and they’ll be like, “This is amazing. How did you get my name on the whiteboard? How did you personalize that?” I’m like, “Yo, I personalized it, I wrote it with a marker.” I’ve heard Amy Porterfield say, I think on her podcast that one of the things that she does during a launch is she’ll jump in to help scout and answer questions and make short audios for people. And there’s often a lot of skepticism, is this the real Amy?

Gillian Perkins:

And I get that too. And that’s why I say it can actually almost damage your credibility because people don’t believe that it could possibly be you. And so they think you have a customer support person who is lying for you, which is not a good thing for your credibility or else they think you’re lying about the fact that you actually have a big list or you actually have support people because, I mean, you took the time to reply to them personally. Which just ends up putting you in an awkward situation. I want to reach out to people, I want to respond to people, and I do a lot of the time, but then a lot of the time I’ll end up signing it with my support person’s name and email because I don’t want it to be awkward.

So I’m glad that you brought that up because that is one of those special opportunities that people who have a small list have. They can totally get away with that, no one’s going to question the realness of their personal response. And it’s a great way to create a stronger connection with people. We’re almost out of time here, but how about you share with us one more really good small list tactic?

Tarzan Kay:

One really good small list tactic. So I would say as often as possible encourage people to reply because when someone replies, they’re starting a conversation. Those are the hottest people. Even if they don’t feel very hot, it feels like they just replied and said, “Hey, good email, I agree.” Those people are starting a conversation. So I would ask a question in your welcome sequence so you can start conversations with the absolute maximum number of people. And get used to ending your emails with … You know what, people often think, well, I can’t send an email because they don’t have a new blog post or a new whatever, whatever, so why would I email my list. Well, email your list just to talk to them, to engage with them and give them some great content.

And if you don’t have a link, all the better because you’re not going to lose people to that link. You can just say like, hey, hit reply, I would love to know, I don’t know, how’s your email marketing? Are you scared to … I don’t know. Ask them a question that’s relative to your industry.

Gillian Perkins:

Some of my favorite questions to ask are about what they’re struggling with or how I can help them, but not framing it very broadly. So I would never say to them, what are you struggling with or how could I help you? Because no one’s going to answer that. So instead of giving them a few options, so it’s like multiple choice and asking them to tell me which of those or asking them to tell me which of two different things they’re more interested in or which goal is more inspiring to them or something like that.

Tarzan Kay:

Oh that’s brilliant. Yeah, the easier it is for them to answer the better. Another question that I love to ask and it’s great for collecting real person objections to whatever your thing is. So right now the program that I’m selling is all about getting publicity and being visible in your business. So we’ve been ending emails with the question, what’s your number one struggle when it comes to getting publicity for your business? I’ve gotten so many awesome replies, it’s a great quiz question. It’s what Ryan Levesque teaches in his program Ask. What’s your number one struggle when it comes to finding an acupuncturist? What’s your number one struggle when it comes to writing your book proposal? It’s an easy question and usually people are like, “Oh, it’s this.”

Gillian Perkins:

It’s such a good piece of advice because it kills so many birds … What am I trying to say? You know what I mean. It kills so many birds with one stone.

Tarzan Kay:

It feeds many birds with one seed.

Gillian Perkins:

It does what?

Tarzan Kay:

It feeds  many birds with one seed.

Gillian Perkins:

That’s so much nicer.

Tarzan Kay:

Isn’t it.

Gillian Perkins:

We’ll go with that. Yes, it is. Because not only are you establishing more rapport with your audience, you are giving yourself a little boost in the email algorithms, which nobody talks about but are totally a thing. When people respond to your email, that’s going to get you more into their primary inbox. But it also is giving you words that you can copy into your swipe file and use for your promotion. Accomplishing so much with one easy email to write, those are the easiest emails to write. Just “Hey, how are you doing? Here’s the question for you.” You didn’t even have to produce any content really, and you are accomplishing so much. So that is an awesome tip.

Well, we are running out of time here. I don’t want this to go on too long even though I have so many more copywriting questions I could ask you. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me on the podcast today, Tarzan. And before we wrap this up, can you just share with the listeners where they can go to connect with you further?

Tarzan Kay:

So if you want to connect with me in person, then come find me on Instagram, I’m very active there, sharing a lot of good … I feel like I’m doing some really good work on Instagram, I’m proud of what I’m doing there. And I’m active in my DM, so you can come say hey there. But also go to my website, tarzankay.com. There’s a lot of email swipes and cool email related freebies that can make writing emails faster and shorter, specifically if you go to tarzankay.com/email, you’ll find a 10-email promo sequence swipe that you can use. So there’s lots of freebies, but I want to say stay for the emails because the emails are where the real gold is, it’s where I do some of my best writing.

Gillian Perkins:

Second, I subscribe to a lot of email newsletters just to read them and learn from people who are writing copy. And yours is one of my favorite newsletters to be subscribed to for that very reason. So thank you so much again for joining me today and for everything that you’ve shared with us about copywriting and specifically how to make the most out of a small list.

Tarzan Kay:

Thank you so much.

Gillian Perkins:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Work Less Earn More. Now, here’s what I want you to do next. Take a screenshot of the episode you’re listening to right now and share it out on your Instagram stories. And when you do that, make sure to tag me at Gillian Z. Perkins so that I can see that you’re listening. Sharing stories is going to help more people find this podcast so that they can learn how to work less, earn more, and take back their lives. And when you share, I want to add it to my stories so that you can get some exposure that way as well. And if you really love the show, head over to Apple Podcasts and leave a review to give the show a boost. Every single week, I feature a review on the podcast and I would love to give you and your business a shout out. So if you leave a review, it will help the show, but it can also help your business as well. Okay, let’s wrap this up. I’m Gillian Perkins and until next week, stay focused and take action.

    Sean McMullin

    Click Here to Leave a Comment Below

    Leave a Comment: